EPISODE 25: Navigating the Nuance in Business: an interview with Mia Francis-Poulin

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Emily Carter  00:09

Hi, I'm Emily. And this is from hustle to hell yes, the  podcast where I share insights and interviews on entrepreneurship for small business owners craving a GPS. Hop in, and let's joyride to a sustainable, profitable business without burning out, getting stuck or stalling out, destination, more revenue less hustle. I first came across Mia Francis-Poulin of Copy Haus because I was looking for something really specific. I needed to find someone running an online business who was writing their copy in a way that was deeply truthful and transparent. I wanted to be not just aligned with my brand, but I wanted to be paying attention to the ways in which I engaged in sales and the ways in which I was calling people in. So let me back up and paint a picture. I did not intend to create an online business, at least not the way that my business operates today, which is 100% online. A few months after going all in full time the world was on lockdown, and I found myself going 100% online. As I looked around, I realized online business was a world I didn't know how to navigate at all. Maybe you can relate. You see all the sales copy and tactics seemingly successful business owners are using and you try them on. You try to mimic what you see other people doing but something just feels off. Enter Mia Francis-Poulin and the Copy Haus where I found the exact inspiration I needed to step fully into my integrity and follow my own compass. Reading the Copy Haus manifesto really inspired me to step fully into my own authenticity. Word army is jam. A conversion copywriter native New Orleanian and Parks and Rec enthusiast, Mia and her team of dedicated copywriters, and content strategists help online business owners to find the right words to market their products confidently, and without the sleaze. She's the CEO and copywriter in Chief of the Copy Haus, the One Stop flat rate copywriting subscription for businesses that want to market their message authentically, ethically, and profitably. It is my absolute pleasure to introduce you to Mia. Today, we're going to talk about a lot of different topics. We're going to cover things on copywriting, of course, but we're also going to be talking about running a business in general and some of the major moves that Mia has made over the last year. So let's dig in.

Mia, welcome to from hustle to hell yes, I am. So super excited that you're here today. And I cannot wait to ask you just about a million questions that I have about Copy Haus, and your work and all of the cool stuff that you've been doing. Since the last time we talked. I think it was like back in November ish. Yeah,

Mia  03:33

I remember was starting to get cold. And so yeah, and it's amazing how much has changed in just that amount of time. So thank you for having me here.

Emily Carter  03:42

Yes, thank you so much. So I usually start with asking folks, you know, how did they get into online business, but instead, I like to ask you about a new business model that you've transitioned to. Can you tell us what that is? And why this new way works for you and sort of tell us like what was the motivation behind completely changing your business model?

Mia  04:05

Yes. So the title of your podcast from hustle to hell yes, is really kind of the embodiment of what I'm going through right now. And so I have been in business for almost four years now will be our four year anniversary on October 1 of this year of 2022. And I was started off as a just freelance copywriter then I wouldn't build this agency and focused in on niching down into online business owners then around launches and nurture sequences and kind of that that those larger copy projects and I realized that I was burning myself to the ground even though I had all of these people around me to help make the Copy Haus run and in Oh, we could talk about team later or in another episode but that's because that's a whole nother conversation. However, I went in In September of 2021, I went in to have surgery, which was also kind of like a byproduct of hustle. And all I know is that after coming out of the surgery, I just woke up and I had this download of exactly how the business needed to run and what it needed to be. And it was the most, like, divine ordained thing. Or maybe it was the Academy, I don't know. But I just woke up and it was there. And I remember I don't remember much of that time because I was very, very hazy. I just remember I was asleep, darkness woke up, it was there and I look over to the nurse, and I can't even see her cuz I don't have my glasses on. I'm like, I am very, very, very, very nearsighted. But I just see this hazy blob, and I go, I'm gonna be a millionaire. What? Yes. And then I started calling for my husband. And I was just like, I love him so much. And I was like, David, I know what I need to do. My husband's Even Steven. I was like, I know what I need to do. And so from there, from that anestesia, ketamine fueled divine download, it was three months until I transitioned into this new subscription model for the Copy Haus.

Emily Carter  06:12

Yes. So that is a brilliant way to come into like an inspired business model. What are some of the so how does this help you? How does this new model help you go from hustle to hell? Yes,

Mia  06:27

yes. So first of all, just a small asterisk caveat, I do not condone drug drug idea. That thing, in which case, I don't judge. But the the way that it helped me really let me let me explain a little bit of what the subscription model is. So the subscription model is the One Stop flat rate, copywriting subscription for online business owners that need successful conversion focused copywriting or content marketing assets. So instead of having to go out and source and on our end, custom propose, or pitch or get on these lengthy sales cycles, we are saying, Hey, here's your subscription for 699 a month, or 999, or 1999. And you're issued a certain number of copy credits every month, and you get to decide how you want to use them. If you want to use them all on social copy, if you want to have us write a sequence for you, if you want us to write a sales page or a website, you can order all of that from the Copy Haus, you're in control and you get our expertise and our our copywriting genius in your business at a rate that is going to be much more accessible than a lot of single Freelancer copywriters, also the quality control portion. I don't know if you've got on some of these Freelancer marketplaces. But sometimes you get gold and sometimes you don't. Right, right. And also, you know, yeah, not everybody's in a position to bring on, you know, a dedicated copywriter to their team on a retainer basis, that's gonna cost you double three times what we're charging, right. And it's that not that we're trying to compete on price is more. So we're trying to make what you need, more accessible and simple to access. So it's easier for the consumer to be able to buy in on this and get it have this access. But it also makes our lives a lot simpler, because we're just selling one thing, one system, we know what to expect. And also I'm not doing the copywriting anymore. So so that's the that's the other part of it.

Emily Carter  08:36

Excellent, excellent. So I love hearing about different business models, because I think that sometimes we get into a mindset of like, it has to be done this way. And what's great is that we get to allow so much more creative flow when we like release ourselves from those boxes. And it sounds like you've done a really great job doing that for yourself and for your team. Yeah,

Mia  08:58

I mean, you know, here's the thing, I've had so many people tell me, you know, no, you should go the route of being a highly paid copywriter, which, you know, in all actuality, I probably would have made half a million dollars this year, if I'd followed that path. And that would be like great, but I would have had no time for my family. I would have been up writing sequence after sequence or sales page or website after website. And there's other things I want to do we're growing a little we're growing our family I'm expecting our last probably baby right now was due this summer. She's due this summer. And you know, there's there's other things that I wanted to have more expansion for in my like actual life outside business. So you know, I made that decision that I wasn't gonna go that route. So

Emily Carter  09:50

I love hearing that because I it culturally, we we live in a system that puts a lot of emphasis on our work and And, and how we how we make a living. Right. But it kind of leaves out the emphasis on the living part, like, what are you doing with all that money? So I love hearing that. You know, it's actually been kind of a wild ride the last few years. And I feel like early in this year, a lot of folks, me included, kind of hit a wall, you know, like it just, yeah, was hard. We just I don't know what happened. I was just tired. And so if you're, if you're in business for long enough, your that's going to happen to you. And I want to ask you, you know, what advice would you offer to folks who are all up in that hustle, and they've hit the wall?

Mia  10:44

Yeah, so for me, and this is my word for the year actually, it's curiosity. And love. I found that, yeah, like, as we take time, especially if we're on that verge of burnout, or we're about to hit that we see the wall right there. We're like, oh, no, I'm gonna hit it, or you've, you've gone smack dab smack into it. We can take, right? If we could take a step back and just say, Okay, what am I actually looking at here? You know, like, what am I actually dealing with? What am I actually doing? Because so often we just get into like, routine with so many apps, or plays or live our lives. And then asking yourself the question of, well, what if I explored a different way? And so for me, and that, that creativity, and just looking at every issue problem opportunity, with an air of creativity and curiosity is, is what helped me kind of circumvent the wall? Because I'll tell you, when I went into surgery, I was the wall and I were one. Like, I, I was just kind of like, oh, man, I don't like I was thinking about closing down my business. Because even though you know, it was a growing profitable business. I just didn't did not have a lot of love for it. You know? Yeah, like, I'm doing it. I'm doing it.

Emily Carter  12:09

Why, but why? Yeah. So I so, you know, for me what I had a I had a realization recently, I love I love that your word this year is curiosity. By the way, that is like one of my core values. I've, like, built my business on this idea of curiosity. So I love hearing when people are using that to so important. For me, I realized, you know, as I was questioning, like, what is this wall that I'm like, looking at, and it was really about seasons, it was really about the seasonality of my process and how I create, and I realized, like, oh, from about December till the end of February, I should not be creating new stuff. And what did I do like the end of December? I was like, Oh, let me put out a bunch of podcasts that I normally wouldn't put out. Let me make a course. Let me do you know, and all that stuff turned out great. But it was really hard, it was exceptionally difficult to pull out the good stuff, because that's just this just isn't really like the best time for me to be creating new stuff. And so there was a huge light bulb that went off, like, oh, I teach this in part because I need to use it all the time and refer to it all the time for myself, you know? Yeah,

Mia  13:24

I really do love that. Because I too, am kind of like, as I'm growing a human, right? Yeah, looking at what season of life am I in? Right? Yes, um, but also what I hear and what you're saying is just about that self awareness on on how you operate. And for me, I also had to go through that too, because I had to be really honest with myself and say, Okay, I am not an operational, like, do the same thing, everyday person, that is the quickest way for me to be an unhappy person. Like, for me, it's like, I am my best highest self when I am like generating and creating something that is novel that makes my brain go, oh, let's follow that thread. And seeing that to completion. Like, that's me at my peak. Now, once it's done and set up, that's what other people do, do I need to go create something new, but right, something tangentially related, you know, but like, I get it, I get it started. You know, I create it. So, yeah, I love that self awareness.

Emily Carter  14:24

Yes. It's so important when we're thinking about like, how can we how can we run our businesses optimally knowing exactly what your happy creative spaces is just, it brings in so much more ease and enjoyment into the work that you do, which I find like, what's, what creates ease makes it sustainable? And what's pleasurable, is more motivating, then, really anything else that I can think of? Like, I'm enjoying the process of creating, I can't help but create something really good. Right? Right. So So yeah, and when you're coming from that place, you can make yourself create something really good. But it's not going to be easy and it's not going to be enjoyable. Exactly, yeah. And that's when that's when you end up in burnout. It's when you end up thinking like, oh, man, maybe I should, maybe I should shut this whole thing down. You know. So it's really important to have that self awareness and to understand where you're at what what you're, you know, we talked about zone of genius. But I really think of that as like, what's the space that I create in, you know, what's that container? And how can I make sure that I'm creating that container again? And again? And again?


For sure. Yes.

Emily Carter  15:36

So your expertise is ethical copywriting. And I know that it takes a lot of nuance to talk about any kind of ethics in business and marketing. And it's one of the things that I tried to touch on a lot in this podcast. So in a world that kind of like, grabs on to sound bites, and tells us how much it needs sound bites, how do you make sure that all of the other nuance, you know that if ands, or buts also make it into the conversation? Yeah. So I love this question,

Mia  16:11

because it really is an important question to ask, because I do I do get a lot of, well, not even that often not even people really giving me pushback, necessarily. It's just that they want to consider the different aspects of things. Right. Yeah. I when I talk about ethical marketing, I talk about it's rooted in respect consent education, like that's, that's my thing, right? Respect for the buying process, getting consent to move to that next step of the sales process and educating your buyer because we want them to make informed decisions, right. That's the thing. And so, there are a lot, a lot of, but what ifs, or how about especially we get into the tactics of how we can actually practically implement Yeah, implement ethical principles that I'm defining into our marketing. But the thing about it is, I know I didn't, but and rather, the thing about is that I want to us to have these conversations, because the whole foundation of what I'm talking about is that we don't question what the marketing or business powers that be say is, this is how you do XYZ. Yes, yeah. So that's why I go on this soapbox about it. Because when we think about sales, right, when we think about marketing, when we think about messaging, there's there's just this let's follow what this person on the with the jet says, but not so much looking beyond the surface. And I think that we are at a place in our country, our world history, that if we don't start asking questions, we're gonna end up somewhere really scary.

Emily Carter  17:55

Yes, yeah. 100%,

Mia  17:59

in my little corner of, of sphere of influence in this marketing space, I want us to have these conversations and ask questions like, let's let's do like, let's talk about it like I walk. Yeah. Right. Like, yeah, challenge me. Let's talk about it. So but yeah, bottom line, answer your question, because that was kind of like a really circuitous. Like we need to ask questions, the whole foundation of ethics, right, is being able to look at the world one know that it's a multifaceted issue, too. And to form your own opinions about it. Three,

Emily Carter  18:35

huh? Yes, yes, coming back to this is not a one size fits all sort of conversation. Right. And we need to as business owners, and as consumers be really curious about how how we're showing up, and also how the folks that we're allowing to influence us are showing up, right? And getting curious about what's behind that the way that oh, there's a mailman. It's all good. There's so this this sense of like, needing to be curious about what's going on behind the scenes, the why behind some of these tactics and why we would want to consider using them versus does this really align not just with my values, but with the impact that I want to have? Right. Which brings me to another question. You know, I talk a lot about things like core values, because I think of them as like a shorthand and a filter and a really good way of, of aligning our curiosity so that we can really get into those questions, right. So do you have core values for yourself at the Copy Haus? I'm pretty sure that you do and What are they? How have you defined them? How have they impacted your business? And how you run it?

Mia  20:07

Yeah, absolutely. So I also love this question. So I, if I may steal a line from Hamilton, right? If you stand for nothing, what will you fall for it? Right, talking to Aaron Burr? You know that? Absolutely. The villain in our history anyway, let me get off that tangent. Um, but I guess we I definitely have, we definitely have core values at the Copy Haus, they and we are out and I'll say this very transparently, you know, we are working through how to make sure that they're understood and adopted, and, and pray and, you know, not praise, but you know, supported cherished throughout our organization. And then also in our marketing as well. You know, we talk about being good humans, like, that's, that's like, step number one, like, be a good human, to our customers, to people who are not our customers, but are just fans, being good humans, to the people on our team to each other. And really just making sure that we are putting our humanity collectively and individually at the forefront, right. So a lot of my team, they're their mothers, I have two, almost three kids, you know, at this point, one of one of whom has special medical needs, you know, we do real life here at the cars. And we recognize that within the organization, like, people are going to do the best that they can and give what they what they can give to their roles to support the company. Also, they have real life to contend with. So leaving space for that as well. So we have, we have an unlimited PTO policy for all our employees, we even with our contractors, like your make your schedule, like we're open from 7am to 7pm. Central, like you choose when you want to work for that work in that and if you have asynchronous work that you're going to do at 2pm or 2am. Like do it, like whatever works best for your schedule, you know, and but I'm not expecting people to be on all the time, right? The other core value that we have is to tell the truth, even when it sucks, right. So transparency within the organization, but also within our marketing as well. Like I'm very transparent when we're when we're doing great or when we're having a challenge. And that's within the company as well. But then also telling people what's going on in the Copy Haus as well. We're making changes when we're like, oh, we tried that. But oops, that didn't work. You know, because I personally think that part of the issue of the smoke and mirrors of the marketing world is that no one's really telling the truth. Like we're using vanity metrics. And we're like, I made a million dollars and I'm on a rented, you know, Lambo outside of something like that's not even yours. Like you just leaned up against it. Right? Right. You know, like, you know, to steal a line from my New Orleans compadre, we're just kind of stunned, right? Like, we're not people aren't really telling, like, they're not really done. You know. And so I think that you can still be a leader, by being truthful, like you don't like being honest about the good and the bad, is not going to make you appear weak. It will make you feel or make you appear rather like a real person. Right? Yeah, it paints the clearer picture. Right. So that's a whole nother talk about aspirational marketing? Because

Emily Carter  23:33

Absolutely, we can really go off. So you know, what I'm hearing and that, too, is, is that this creates accountability, too. Right, which is the other thing that started missing from some of those tactics is accountability, about like, what are you really talking about, you know, if we're only seeing half the story, not only are you being a little bit dishonest by not telling the full truth, but also you're not giving us an opportunity to understand really fully what, what you're advertising what you're marketing to us when you're using tactics like that in your marketing, so, so it's, and also, this can create accountability within your organization to right, because when you're, when you're allowing space for that kind of transparency, it's okay to admit that you have mistakes, right? That you make them, right, because you're human. And also, you're as an organization, being really transparent about that, as an organization, it really makes it much easier, I think, for individuals to to step forward and say, this did not work. And it was a mistake on my part to do it this way. Right.

Mia  24:41

Right. Yeah. I mean, it goes back to like truth in advertising, right. Like, you know, we have these FTC laws about truth in advertising. Absolutely. But it's, it's it's about when you're using your platform, right? And people are following you and saying, oh, this person has it all figured out. Because look at XYZ that they have, look at what they did in this last launch look at, you know, all of these things, but we're not we're either outright lying or not telling the full story about what's going on behind the scenes. It's, it is violating truth in advertising. Right? So yeah, like, let's think about it, right? Like the in the online world is the wild, wild west a little bit, you know, like, people are just doing whatever the hell they want to do at this point. So I think it's true, at least true. Yeah, it's true. So I think that is if, and this is why it's so important for me to just say, you know, I'm going to tell it, like, it is like, I may not post my, you know, monthly revenue every single month or whatever. But, you know, like, if somebody asked me want to know how we're like, what's your financial picture? I'll tell. So

Emily Carter  25:40

yeah, yeah, this is important, you know, in a lot of ways. I think that using those core values can help us align with our integrity and, and be able to make decisions about how we advertise and the kind of copy that we create, which kind of leads me to my next question, which is, how can we tell if we're being ethical in our copy? Is there any way to go instead of this, do that? Or is there? What's a what's a metric that we can use to go? Yes, this is ethical. No, this is not. Is that even possible?

Mia  26:17

Yeah. So all right, I will say, it just kind of goes back to what we were talking about a few minutes ago, right? Like it is nuanced, right. So let's put that caveat out there that it is nuanced. However, I always say start with what your gut is telling you. If something feels icky, if it feels sleazy, if it feels like you is out of alignment with what you want to present yourself as, but you need to listen to that, right. Like there's a lot of talk about how people who say, well, the words, is it they'll say they'll say things like, Oh, you don't want to reach out to people because they feel sleazy, but really, that's a confidence or mindset issue or whatever, right?

Emily Carter  27:00

Or you're just reaching outside of your comfort zone,

Mia  27:03

right? Like, there, there is some truth to like, you have to get out of your comfort zone in business like that business is being brave, right? Because you are basically stepping into a blank unknown, right? Yeah,

Emily Carter  27:17

that visibility is scary.

Mia  27:19

It is scary. However, like, if you don't feel comfortable jumping into the DMS of someone who you've never met, you know nothing about them and copying and pasting a form response, like listen to that like, like, baby, that's not the tactic for you. Right? And so, but I use that as an example. But the larger the larger point that I'm trying to make is that if a tactic does not feel good to you, or it feels stressful to you, or you feel like if you were on the other end, the receiving end of it, that it would not feel good, we should listen to that, right and listen to ourselves, because we are not human. We're not. We are not disembodied entities doing doing business with another disembodied entity, we are humans doing commerce with humans, right? Whether you are b2b Working with major organizations, like you are a human making a contract will exchange right and exchange money with another human being on the other side of that paper or that phone or that Zoom that's in like, right. So Big Think about that first. The other thing is, is it goes back to like questioning things. So I actually have a resource. And I'll have to get you the link to this resource. Yeah, definitely. It's seven tactics that need to go away. Right, seven, seven marketing tactics that need to go away if you want to be an ethical and ethical marketer. And one of them, like I'll use, for example, it's very popular deadline timers, right. Yeah, we have these deadline timers that we use. And I think I talked about this on our last episode. Yeah. You know, what those timers that ticking clock does is it raises cortisol levels, right? Yeah. Do we want to stress our people out? Like, right, you know, stress people out?

Emily Carter  29:04

Yeah. Especially needlessly, it's like, that thing really isn't going away anytime soon. Why put a 15 minute timer on it? If they can come back later? Like, why would you do that to someone? You know, like, there's no point to doing? Yes. Yeah, I mean, if it's really going away, maybe it will help them understand, you know, like, Oh, this is a limited time resource. I have to grab it now. Because it really is ending in a day. But like, if they can come back, like, why would we want to make them feel like they have to do it right this minute. That's just like pushing someone into, into a into a corner really? Right.

Mia  29:38

Exactly. Well, and also it doesn't respect the buying process, because they're right, people who they're not going to buy right, right after they see the thing, right, that's not natural to the way that they make decisions. Right. So we got to respect that too. So, so yeah, I say start with like, how would you feel on the receiving end of that? And if that doesn't feel good or aligned, like listen to Do

Emily Carter  30:00

Yes, I love, I love that you're bringing in, like, feel into that. Because I think we have a lot of people telling us not to trust that feeling. And I know it sounds really woowoo to say like, trust your intuition, trust your gut, because a lot of folks will say yes, but I'm sure okay, we can have some yes buts, I want to respect that too. But that's coming from somewhere. And if you ignore it, really bad things can happen. But and also, you're training yourself to ignore it, right? So that you won't pick up on it when it's actually important. So paying attention to that and hitting the pause button long enough to unpack Where's that coming from? Right, like when your nervous system is getting hijacked by a tactic. You have to be able to, to bring it, rein it back in, so that you can make a decision from an empowered place, as opposed to like being backed into a corner and feeling like you have to do something that you're uncomfortable with, or you wouldn't normally do. Yeah, yeah. And I, I just think that like, maybe I love that you brought that into like, this is the this is how you can tell whether or not what you're about to do is ethical for you. Because this is a part of a broader conversation that involves so much nuance around what we're doing and how it's impacting the people around us. And the influence that we're exerting. That really the best metric is like you said, just like go with that gut feeling. I just love that so much.

Mia  31:38

Yeah, we have to,

Emily Carter  31:39

yeah, yeah, um, you know, in a lot of ways, our copy and our marketing and, and a lot of what we do it, as we're building up a brand, is about getting the right attention from the right people, right, like getting the eyes of our ideal clients, what are some help helpful tips or hints that might help us stand out to those folks without, you know, manipulating them, or pushing pushing buttons on their nervous system? How, how can we approach this differently? Yeah, absolutely. So

Mia  32:16

one of the things that really sets the Copy Haus method of copywriting, apart from a lot of conventional copy wisdom is that we don't lean into people's pain, or the core tension that they're living in every single day, because I firmly believe that in this day and age, where we are dealing with viruses and wars and inflation, and, you know, yes, all of that all of these great, wonderful, very stressful things that we're all acutely aware of, we don't need to focus more on pain, and an agitating, you know, amplifying the pain, right. So one of the things that we do instead is we get really, really clear on what is it that your people are really seeking? What is the the life that they're wanting to live or the business they're wanting to have? Or the health status that they're wanting to achieve? What does that actually look like for them and do for them? Right, and painting that picture, and showing them how the work that you do together? Whether it's through a course, a group program, one on one, work, a PDF, download, whatever it may be, it will help them with that transformation in however metric, it will, it could potentially help them, right? Yeah. So for us, it's about looking at how we can have people see themselves in the picture we're painting on the end of the work together. But that means you have to really know your people. Yeah, know your people.

Emily Carter  33:55

So one of the ways that I've been thinking about this is I was trying to come up with like a good analogy for like, this idea, like, trying to pair up this idea of like, if I have something really valuable, that can really help people, it's like kind of my job to make sure that people can find it and get it. And and trying to figure out how can I how can I present that without, you know, like, being kind of a jerk about it, right? And like harping on the pain part. And I love that you summed it up that way. And one of the analogies that I came up with was like, what if I worked in the desert, and I saw lots of thirsty people and I sell water, like, what's the best way for me to solve their problem? I could just say, you're thirsty, I got water, or I could like detail how thirsty they are and how painful that is and how dry their mouth is and all of the negative effects on their bodies of being dehydrated. Right and, and is that really is that really helping them to make the decision that they want the water. I don't think that it is right. Like, I can just simply say, if you're thirsty, I have water and they'll come.

Mia  35:07

Right? Right, exactly. We don't need to make them even more acutely aware of their throat closing the dryness of their tongue, the pain in their head, like we don't have to go that far.

Emily Carter  35:19

All right, just rein it in a little bit. We're all aware of what those effects are. You know, I, I've been thinking a lot about how challenging times has been, and what are some of the ways that you've found to meet those challenges? And what are some of the accomplishments that you've had? Because of thinking about your challenges in that way? I know, this is a big question that I probably did not prepare you for. But I'm just thinking like, you know, of all of the, the business questions that I have a lot of them center around how do we deal with adversity? And how do we meet that adversity well, so that we can continue to to grow and to do good things in the world?

Mia  36:08

Yeah, I so I actually really, really like this question, even though you're right, it is a big question. For me, I think what it is, is that is not glossing over the things that are happening and how they impact business. Right? Like so for, for me, you know, I have a talk that I give, and I tend to give it every time there's an extra judicial murder of a black person or black person in this country happens. Happens a lot, we can count how many times that happens, right. And so it's about how to how to master your messaging, you know how to talk about hard things when the world feels like it's going that's like, that's kind of like the rough title of it. And it really what that talk does one, it's centering for me, because it helps me kind of like, okay, this is how I'm going to do. So I'm going to talk about this when the world feels really, really heavy. Right? Um, but also, it, I think that it helps my audience to just take a step back and say, Okay, let me acknowledge that the world feels and that's right now, for me, maybe it's feeling that's for my people to maybe business, as usual is not business as usual today, or this week, or this month. Right? And taking a moment to just voice that and give that space I think is important, because what a lot of conventional business wisdom says is to stay out of politics, geopolitical happenings, you know, don't those things have, quote, nothing to do with business? You know, I'm doing air quotes. Yeah, it has everything to do with business. Absolutely. Because again, we're humans doing cute commerce with other humans. So if we don't sit back not to say we have to sit in the crappiness of it, right. But to at least acknowledge and to say, Okay, this moment in time is impacting me in this way. Or this moment in time is impacting my clients or my customers in these ways that will help you become a more empathetic business owner, but also a more culturally relevant business owner to be able to speak to your people where they're at at any moment in time.

Emily Carter  38:24

Hmm, yes. Oh my gosh, I love this. My. My friend Alyssa Patmos has a podcast called Make it mentionable which is named after what Mr. Rogers says, which is that if you can name hard stuff, then you can beat it, essentially, like what what becomes mentionable is now manageable, right. And I love that. I love that sentiment, I love the ability to place words out there, so that you can make it mentionable so that it's no longer something that has to be hidden, right? Like, the hard stuff grows in the dark, right. But if you shine a light on, it gets a lot harder for it to grow. Right. And you're right, I agree so much 100%, that the political is personal now, it has been for a long time. And our businesses are spheres of influence. And we get to use them how we want to write and one of those is to is to influence people to be better versions of what they want this world to look like. Right? And one of the ways that we can do that is we talk about it, we share it openly, transparently. Which gets back to your core values of honesty, right. I love that and truth. Yeah, absolutely.

Mia  39:46

Yeah. And I think you know, a lot of people may listen to this and they think well, but I don't have I haven't fleshed out my whole opinion or what if I say something wrong or something like that? And I think that that's that's part of it, right? You're not supposed to have it figured out if you had it. had it quote figured out like you'd be solving world world crises like, yeah, like you'd have this like that, that you should go and like, go get a Pulitzer Prize or something, you know,

Emily Carter  40:10

nobody's got that nobody's got the answer. So if you're waiting to have it yourself, like, it's not a thing that that's gonna happen, you know, right. Like, that's okay. Yes, yeah, none of us has the answer. But hopefully by collectively working on our influence and working it out and making it mentionable we can kind of come to a place that's better that serves everyone better, right? Absolutely. Um, you know, I, I think of a lot of business as being an adventure. And I love to go out adventuring. Not necessarily for my business, but just in general, I like adventure. My background is in entertainment. And I was a roadie for a while I took big road trips everywhere, like travel has always been like a big part of my, my version of adventure. And I wonder, what's your version of, of adventure? And what have you learned from those those adventures? Whoo, I

Mia  41:04

love this question. So I am I am a, again, going back to curiosity. Like I love novel experiences, right? So anytime I get to experience different cultures, or different schools of thought, like that's, that is always very intriguing for me. So it doesn't even have to be meat physically going somewhere. Like I find adventuring books, like I'm wearing, nobody can see this. I'm wearing this book. So my love language sweater, which I feel like it's very appropriate for this moment in time. But you know, exploring different, different ways that people think about things like back when I was in school, I would read all kinds of philosophical literary tomes and things on on literary theory, and I just found that stuff so fascinating. You know, and, and just thinking about how it relates to, you know, our lives in like the real world outside of pages and books, right.

Emily Carter  42:01

Yeah. So speaking of books, are you reading right now?

Mia  42:05

I am rereading the big leap.

Emily Carter  42:08

Oh, nice. That's a good one to good. Yeah,

Mia  42:11

I'm rereading it. I have it right here. But yeah, it on my bookshelf. I'm rereading that one because that's one that if you haven't read, haven't read the big leap. Oh, my gosh, the author's name is gay. Hendricks Gay Hendricks Yeah. There we go. I was like, Oh, is it? Yeah. If you haven't read that one. And you're a business owner, you should read it. It is a I think a brilliant blend of mindset. Woo. But also, like, practical, like you can see this happening in your real life. And you'll be like, oh, so

Emily Carter  42:41

yeah, this is how that works. Yeah, yeah. I forget if he if he talks about zone of genius in there. Yeah, yeah. So this is this is if you've been hearing that this is where that came from y'all. So I wonder. So I've been reading the overstory, which is fiction, but it's all about trees and environment. And actually, it's like, it's a, I've been reading it very slowly, because it's so meaty. Like, I have to like, process the story so much. And the characters are really fascinating too. So highly recommend that if you're looking for some some deep fiction with some like, philosophical ties to it. I love it a lot. I I've just been enjoying it so much, in part because I draw a lot of my inspiration from nature and from from trees, specifically, I forget who said it, but somebody somebody said, somebody famous, much more famous than me said that if you question miracles at all, then you should just like go look at a tree like really go and look at a tree. And like, I find that to be so true for myself. And so I wonder if there's something in nature that inspires you that way. Because I just I love hearing that from folks as much as I love hearing how they got into business and what they're doing in their business.

Mia  44:03

So for me, like I'm obsessed with butterflies, I love butterflies so much I have tattoos of butterflies. Like I have them all over everywhere in my house. And for me, they're they're like my universal symbol. Like whenever I need a reminder from the universe that I'm on the right path or everything's gonna be okay like I am just sent butterflies even if it's not butterfly season, like I will see a butterfly but what I really love about them is that they are the most resilient yet fragile. Things. I feel like in nature, like insects in nature, like they have to not only they go from a caterpillar, right? And they're just slugging along. And they could be like very venomous, you know, be touching them. Yeah. And then they wrap themselves in a cocoon and melt. Well, yeah, like they turn into you. They turn into goo and then come out and squeeze through this cocoon like That's vital to the process. And then they come out, they just unfurl. And they're this beautiful, this beautiful butterfly. And there they are these the complexity of, of how they look and the variety of different types of butterflies. I just think it's, it is nature's gift to like, beautiful gift to me, I think, you know, so just, I really, I really are, I have merit like my phone pop socket is a butterfly, like they're everywhere. But um, I think that with the butterfly, I just take so much inspiration from it, because it's just, you can still be beautiful and fragile, but like, so incredibly resilient, which just resonates with me so much. So that's such

Emily Carter  45:47

a beautiful metaphor, like the whole process of going from Caterpillar to butterfly, and the importance of not helping that butterfly through the difficult task is coming out of that cocoon, right. Like that difficulty is part of the resilience, right? That just everything that you just said resonates so much with me around like what a beautiful metaphor for so much of what we have to do in life. Right? Yeah, exactly a fall. Mia, we're coming up on the end of our time together. But before I let you go, I wanted to touch on the podcast that you just started. Yeah. So tell us about your podcast, because I am a podcast junkie. So I of course have been all up in it. But could you could you talk with us a little bit about that? Share that with us?

Mia  46:33

Yes. Oh, thank you for this. So it is called the money marketing and mission show. And I named as such not just because it has beautiful alliteration with it. My name being Mia starting with an M, and we release new episodes on Mondays because of course. But really, it's it's central to all of the things that we talk about at the Copy Haus. It's like, yes, we are in business to make money. But money also is how we are going to fuel change. Like if we want to change the world. We need money to do that. Right? Yeah, marketing, we're talking about how are we actually going to not harm our people and getting to that money, right. And then mission, even if not saying mission as in like nonprofits, but you can still be a business that is for profit, but have central mission and core mission that you are trying to implement in your world and the world. Right. And so really what it is, is it's a mix of solo shows where I'm talking about one or all of these things, but also bringing in people in my circle of people in my network people that I you are just I would love to talk to them and have a conversation. And we're doing just that we're having conversations about business, about growing businesses with a mission that's central to what they're doing, how they make money, and about how in their zone of excellence, you know, to steal a Gay Hendricks term in their zone of excellence, they are doing the work necessary to support and empower their consumers as well. So it's a great time, you can find it on all the places where people listen to podcasts. So that's just my legacy. If you listen to podcasts, it's on there, wherever

Emily Carter  48:15

they're, wherever it is. So one more question about the podcast. What led you to want to have a podcast because I know I know. For me, this is a labor of love. And I love asking everyone questions. So I knew that this was a format that I was going to want to have. And I had been lusting after having a podcast for years before I started it. How did you come? How did you come to it? And what were your reasons? Yeah.

Mia  48:41

Well, so first, I love podcasts. I am, I am when I when I read books, it is rare now for me to actually have a physical book like I'm listening to audiobooks, so me and the audio format is just like, you know, chef's kiss like it's for me. So I had that kind of selfish reason. But also even though I am a writer, when I am not working or working on my book, we'll talk about that and 2023 Yeah, so that's a whole nother conversation. I'm writing a book but what if I'm not doing those things me writing for other things is just like not going to happen. So I knew that like I'll even though I would love to have a blog, if I actually wanted to get the content out there. It needed to be in a verbal format plus, I can talk a lot I have a lot of things to say about a lot of things and I love talking with people and having conversations and it doesn't hurt that I don't have to put on you know my makeup to have these conversations it's like a show of comfy so right it's

Emily Carter  49:43

so nice right? I love it. I love it even though my background is in video I prefer podcasting I just I like it more it's it's way less stress for me being kind of a perfectionist when it comes to video because backgrounds. I'm so excited writing a book. Oh my gosh, me I wait to like, just blow us all away. Wow, that's awesome. I'm super excited about that.

Mia  50:08

I'm really excited about it too. I have been sitting with half of a manuscript and it's a nonfiction book. I've been sitting with it for probably, like 24 months or something like that. And I finally was like, okay, you know, we just got it, like, got to get it done. So I'm excited for it. Yes, me

Emily Carter  50:24

too. I'm gonna have you back when that book is coming out. So be like, yeah, be looking for that. I'll be in the loop. Again, keep an eye out. Mia. We're, we're, you know about at the end here. How can people follow you besides the podcast? Are there other places where people should come and soak up your knowledge and wisdom? Yes. So besides

Mia  50:44

the money marketing admission show, which is everybody listened to your podcast, we have a free Facebook group, which is called the money marketing admission community. So if you go to Facebook and search for money marketing admission, you'll find that group where we talk about all things, Mission marketing, Community Business Building, we're actually starting a guest speaker series. So people can come in and do guest lives talk about their zones excellence or their zone of genius. So that's really exciting. But other than that, you find us on Instagram at the Copy Haus. And that's H. Au s because we're fancy. And then also we are on LinkedIn, which I love connecting with people on LinkedIn as well. You can find me at Mia Francis Poulan on LinkedIn.

Emily Carter  51:28

Mia, thank you so much for being here today. I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, I could probably ask you a million other questions. But I want to be respectful of everyone's time today. So I'll just have to have you back. So I can ask you some more questions. Thank you so much for sharing. So, so much excellent information. There's so many gold nuggets in here. Like I cannot wait to revisit this podcast as I'm editing it, just to hear them again. So thank you so much for being here.

Mia  51:55

Thank you for having me, I really appreciate it.

Emily Carter  51:58

Running a business is hard freakin work. But there are some things we can do to make it simpler and easier on ourselves. One of those things is by leaning into core values. For me, something really magical happened when I started relying on those core values in my business and really weaving them into how I did stuff. Suddenly, I was experiencing more peace of mind every night when I closed up my laptop, I was creating higher quality content to share. I was making decisions more quickly and confidently and showing up with more authenticity for every part of my business. And I started delivering a consistent and repeatable client experience. And that's when my business really started to feel like a hell yes, instead of a hustle harder. So if you're wanting to make things a little simpler in your business as you're growing it, if you've ever felt overwhelmed by which courses and mentors to follow what tools to use in your business, how to create balance in your life, or which marketing tactics to implement. Leveraging your core values at these important crossroads in your business can help you make the decision that's right for you and help you sleep better at night. That's why I made the core values course and right now if you go to change agent, that studio slash core dash values dash offer, you can get my core values process for identifying, defining and weaving them into your business for more ease enjoyment and effectiveness. So head to the show notes or hit up my website at WWW dot change agent that studios slash core dash values dash offer and get yourself on track to using those core values and leveraging them to make your business life a little simpler. Hey, before you go, thank you so much for listening today. If you liked this episode, please share it. Leave a review wherever you listen and hit that subscribe button so we can keep the conversation going. If you want to dive even deeper into today's episode, just go to www dot change agent dot studio slash podcast and look for this episode of shownotes